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Ethics and Rules (and oh boi, drama!)

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  1.  
    ShadowNox
    Darkness

    ShadowNox Senior Citizen
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    So as the lot of ya probably know, recently there's been some drama surrounding our very own "Light Snow" which brings up some interesting moral/ethical questions. Before I get into that though, I'll, as best I can, objectively explain the situation for anyone not involved.

    Light Snow created a mentor thread, offering to mentor around 7 or 8 people, was it? and as expected, some people signed up. One person in particular, DeltaUnit, also signed up for this mentorship. Now, through another medium (aka not on psionnation), they were communicating and Delta expressed the desire for LightSnow to help him/her/them with his/her/their "guardian" spirit - more or less asking for a scan. According to DeltaUnit, LightSnow expressed explicitly his opinion on the spirit, thinking that it was there to leech off of Delta and that it was no good, etc. However, the scan was still to be had. According to a group of people including Delta himself/herself/themselves, LightSnow proceeded to attack and nearly kill the guardian, requiring said group of people to stop him and keep him at bay. According to LightSnow, however, no such attacks went on and it was all simply slander. Either way, Delta and the group brought this back to psionnation, wildly posting on the thread several "warnings" to people that would have thought to join LightSnow. Due to the site rules, Zerachiel deleted those comments and later on, at the request of LightSnow, deleted the thread.

    Now - the site has very clearly maintained that off-site drama has no effect on anything that happens on-site, no matter what. It's up to you, the individual, to take either Delta's side of the story or Light's side but this does however bring up the fact that it is indeed possible for people to rope in members here on the site, go off-site with them and harm them/manipulate them/damage them in any way and simply expect no repercussions when they do return to the site due to these rules. Do you think that off-site events should have a clear impact on the site or do you agree with the website's stance on off-site drama?

    Personally, I've been part of many OEC communities where off-site events actively related to on-site events and it was definitely a double edged blade. On one hand, it did send away people who were, in fact, pretty dangerous or simply willing to use their skill to disadvantage others. On the other hand, it has sent away people who were actually innocent and has been seen to be unreliable. The problem with this lies in what we choose to believe. In the aforementioned example, it is claimed that around 5? people bore witness to this act. Some might say 5 scanners are a lot - a viable number for legitimacy. If five scanners all told me I had a broken chakra, for example, I'd put some thought into it. At the same time, however, group delusions run rampant in real life and on the internet - especially in the OEC. I've seen up to 20 people all claim they've seen the same thing, only to find out later that it was nothing but a delusion. I've actively fooled an entire website into seeing the same thing myself, only for me to know that it was nothing but a lie and that they've simply all fooled themselves.

    Now this can definitely hold true here and in many other cases like this too. They could have just as easily been delusional as they were legitimate but with the somewhat fallacious "legitimacy in numbers" argument, people will always be inclined to take the bigger side. If LightSnow did attack this guardian, then sure - a system which punishes off-site events would benefit there. But how long would it take for it to affect someone innocent simply because a group of people off site have said so? How easily would it be to take advantage of a system in place like this. Who gets to determine the skill and validity of a scanner and their scans? Would it be the site owner or any admins? I bet some people would rage if that were the case, considering the blatant animosity that some people on the site hold towards some people on staff. So who gets to determine who is a legitimate scanner or what? And what's to say that said scanner(s) didn't make mistakes anyways - they're only human.

    My point, essentially, is that it would be too much of an unreliable system if we punished off-site events here, even though it can lead to people taking advantage and exploiting this rule. As it's in the debate forum, however, feel free to share your views on this too. Who knows, we might even incite a change if enough people agree on something.

    As always, be civil. Anything you say that isn't an opinion should be able to be backed up. Idle and empty claims are not welcome here. If you have a comment built up entirely on nothing, I will ask an admin to delete it. If you have something towards a person or a stance towards an issue, please expect people to be able to question and criticize it. Especially if you haven't presented reason for it to be believed.
     
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  2.  
    LinRae
    Thinking

    LinRae Senior Citizen
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    I think that if the parties involved had proof in the way of screenshots of conversations that backed up what they viewed to happen (which the mentioned case we do have this and an admission by Light_snow of what he tried to do) then the parties should be allowed to present this evidence to back up their claim of the event. From there action should be taken to some extent. In the case of Light_snow, he was given a mentor title and abused this. Therefore a course of action that could potentially be taken, without any on-site warning points, is to remove this title with no point warning on his account as such to prevent him from having this title for a period of time.

    I wouldn't consent to action being taken from word of mouth alone, screenshots of chat logs that back up the claim should however be taken into account.

    I would like to see some sort of policy implemented that would help to reduce or remove the possibility of such off-site abuse of the site and its resources. There have been other incidences that occurred off-site that were deemed to have enough relation to this site for action to be taken in the past when proof, albeit flimsy, was presented.
     
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  3.  
    ClassyAmoeba
    Spaced

    ClassyAmoeba Senior Citizen
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    The proof was presented, that's all I have to say.
     
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  4.  
    DeltaUnit

    DeltaUnit Citizen
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    http://i.imgur.com/WFArzT3.png
    A small sliver of proof that Snow did, indeed, cause damage.
    It is also a sliver of proof of his 'leech' theory that he presented to me again and again.
    No apology, and a brash, insincere comment was made regarding my guardian.
    I shall post more upon request.
     
  5.  
    Zerachiel
    Amused

    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    I don't believe off-site issues should be the on site staff's place to touch, because on site sure it's their "jurisdiction" but off-site it's a bit redundant and can continue to happen even if the person was "punished" so what use would it be? and when you are sure there's bias towards staff or member then it's clear that such opinions in that regard should be ignored.

    As for scanning, depends a lot of the time it can be friendship bias in scans or overconfidence in one's skill or frontload, be it on accident or purpose. It's part of why many seek confirmations from multiple communities and at best take it into consideration rather than full 100% but that is known by those that have been in the OEC for a while, but then there's those new who can be easily frontloaded or influenced by someone who sees themselves as "better" or "more advanced"

    It's hard but not impossible for a legit scanner to be determined, a test set up by the owner or admin, but that can have issues with how one can let their own opinion determine why they got it wrong.

    So point being, off site issues should remain off site, because what can staff do? ban the individual? that won't stop anything. Staff try darn hardest to not pick sides or white knight situations to keep out bias but there will always be the opinion of there being bias, and scanning while it has it's uses is far from determining what happened, as everyone is subject to frontload, bias behavior, and their own sense of morality as that's a blinding factor.
     
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  6.  
    Perses Keraunos
    Cool

    Perses Keraunos ♛First Elder of the Nation♛
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    Technically, no one needs a title to become a mentor, so taking away the title wouldn't mean anything.You become a mentor 'cause you want to teach others and you offer your services to 'em.

    Seriously, this all is starting to sound a bit like "conspiracy theory".
    I think that if you agree to go somewhere else to do something, then you shouldn't bring the baggage from it to here.As the saying goes, "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas".

    People shouldn't trust so quickly on others, specially when they're newbies.If they can't protect themselves, then they shouldn't even give the "go" to people that they don't know really well.This, however is if what happened really happened or even if it happened on purpose.Sometimes things go awry 'cause people don't have the skill they thought they had or just 'cause a real accident.

    "Tell a lie too many times and people will think that it's true".

    We would need to find a system that would work to legitimize legit-LoL-scanners.The only way I see this working would be if you've got a group of people that ARE acknowledge by the whole, or at least majority, of the community as being legit with their abilities, the real thing.It could be from the staff or not, the point would be to be people that proved to the community their legitimacy by themselves.
     
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  7.  
    Ulysses88
    Spaced

    Ulysses88 Senior Citizen
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    I think that drama off-site should stay off-site. But still, sometimes we have to be very cautious about members new and old.
     
  8.  
    Light_snow
    Breezy

    Light_snow Psion Mentor
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    @DeltaUnit trying to leave out parts of the story and twisting them in your favor again huh. If anyone wishes to see more I'll be GLAD to post the whole convo and you will see Delta did not tell me anything nor did he even claim I was causing damage, only to his little drama club. Once or twice did he tell me and I did apologize and my reasons for it along with even telling it was accidental but he insisted it was fine to "just read it like a book".
     

    Attached Files:

  9.  
    LinRae
    Thinking

    LinRae Senior Citizen
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    You realize you just verified what we said as true and contradicted yourself with that screenshot, right?
    By saying you'll make up for it, you're admitting you did it. By saying you'll heal her, you're admitting she was damaged. I recall when you said you were going to heal her, but no one trusted you by that point (Delta included) not to try to finish what you started. Delta made heavy use of sarcasm, which most anyone can see plainly if you post the entire conversation.
     
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  10.  
    DeltaUnit

    DeltaUnit Citizen
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    I told you that I didn't want you to scan 'T' further, and told you that if I wanted more info on her you should just read the ES chunk you ripped out 'like a book.' It was an exasperated joke.
    I told you to stop the scan when I realized the harm that was being done, and you kept going.
    What you have said just now does not cover up for you treating Depression like a 'test rat', however. http://i.imgur.com/ys2JVTi.png
    I have already said, I will post more posts if needed. The screenshot I posted was the most recent chunk I could grab.
     
  11.  
    Light_snow
    Breezy

    Light_snow Psion Mentor
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    Clearly since you only wish to read and understand what you want, I said "makeup for whatever I did" since you both kept on attacking me saying I'm harming her when I had NO KNOWLEDGE of me harming nor was it even my intention to do so.
     
  12.  
    Light_snow
    Breezy

    Light_snow Psion Mentor
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    And @DeltaUnit you kept on wanting me to scan her for details remember? Or you refuse to admit that as well.
     
  13.  
    Zerachiel
    Amused

    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    Try and stay civil, fair warning to now and further comments, think before you comment yo.
     
  14.  
    DeltaUnit

    DeltaUnit Citizen
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    Ahh... here we go. Now, I will say, you started out just fine, Snow, but...
    http://i.imgur.com/doLojUR.png http://i.imgur.com/zAmyyzs.png http://i.imgur.com/S1JzlQk.png http://i.imgur.com/LWLG3ET.png
    http://i.imgur.com/dQG7jSU.png Then, your speech about entities began. By this point, I thought your scan was done, and I thought you were just relaying your findings.
    ....And you dodged the question on 'T's intentions, getting off track.
    http://i.imgur.com/041wuLQ.png I noticed something attached to 'T', and that you were still present long after I thought the scan was done.
    http://i.imgur.com/JFFD96X.png You trailed on about your backstory, I suppose I also pitched in a little.
    http://i.imgur.com/sas7vq1.png Then you proceeded to gloat about how good you were at stripping entities off of people. This was when I felt rather suspicious.
    http://i.imgur.com/mtKfIvt.png http://i.imgur.com/fVqUpWy.png I knew something was up, and told you that I would forcefully disconnect the scanning effort if trouble happened to 'T'.
    http://i.imgur.com/CRYq40w.png You continued to dodge my questions on her intentions.
    http://i.imgur.com/Vad0nYO.png I know, I told you to 'scan lighter'. What I meant was, 'cut out the harm-causing thing you're doing.' God, Snow. I didn't tell you to continue on with what you were doing.
    http://i.imgur.com/7yAa02k.png You continued to dodge the question on 'T's intentions, and then went AFK. Who goes AFK for a basic scan?
    http://i.imgur.com/mr526BQ.png http://i.imgur.com/UM9kOr1.png
    "I will be honest though, not completely."
    You admitted to 'T' lacking a good chunk of her ES.
     
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  15.  
    Light_snow
    Breezy

    Light_snow Psion Mentor
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    @DeltaUnit again still twisting the story in your favor since you OBVIOUSLY left out parts AGAIN. Though thank you for posting PARTS of the convo, anyone with common sence would understand the convo and how much you kept BUGGING for a scan.
     
  16.  
    DeltaUnit

    DeltaUnit Citizen
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    That's... a significant chunk of the chat.
    True, I bothered you to start a scan in the first place, as I have been trusting people with trying to help me research 'T'.
    Though, scans typically do not take very long.
    I thought you were done the scan, and I was asking about what you found.
    You kept dodging my question on her intentions.
    Though, what do you have to say about the 'lab rat' incident, and your speech on entities?
    http://i.imgur.com/XqF5KqM.png http://i.imgur.com/mhj1nsZ.png http://i.imgur.com/yykTZIJ.png
    'they use their energy to "Heal" you/the damages but it's merely to prevent them from loosing energy' A guardian heals and protects the one it is assigned to. That is 'T' doing her job. You should have taken this into account.
    http://i.imgur.com/0IY4ue1.png Yes, I skipped over the part about Dep's entity, as that is not the current topic at hand.
    Snow, I would like to keep this civilized, and you aren't doing much to back up your innocence, other than bickering.
    You're not helping the discussion.
     
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  17.  
    Perses Keraunos
    Cool

    Perses Keraunos ♛First Elder of the Nation♛
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    I should be sorry to say this, but I'm not, since both sides ended up creating this situation for themselves intentionally or not.This entire drama would make a great plot for a story, so I would like to ask the mods and the authors to not delete the posts.

    Both sides have their own views of what happened, so unless we decide to "join one side", both will still be right and wrong.Many things could've been done to avoid this entire situation, it just never happened to both sides to think of 'em.
     
  18.  
    ShadowNox
    Darkness

    ShadowNox Senior Citizen
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    Ooh this is so much fun. The plot thickens indeed

    Either way, while your case was brought up as an example, it is not to dominate this thread. The point of this thread is to debate whether off-site actions should matter. Stay on topic or I'll have those comments deleted, as much fun as they are.
     
  19.  
    Perses Keraunos
    Cool

    Perses Keraunos ♛First Elder of the Nation♛
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    Don't delete 'em, they're good material for stories, or inspiration for 'em.
    Off-side actions matter in a way.We don't live in this nation 24/7, so of course we have other stuff that might affect our interation with others here, but usually it's mostly real life small issues that are blown out of proportion.
    As much as we try not to, we do bring baggage from other places, so it's hard to not say even one phrase regarding something that happened.We all do it, even if we don't notice.

    However, when something happens off-site, that could've very well have happened in the site, then I believe that it shouldn't be brought to our attention.This site is a safe place to have your scan done, to learn something from someone, so when you're new it's always best to do things here where you can ask advices from others and then practice in your home.
    There is also the fact that here we have people that are-considered-legit and advanced enough to deal with most issues newbies and intermediate psions might have, so if something dangerous were to happen or happened, the ones who believed to have been wronged would be able to ask for a "pro" help.Or at least they would be able to offer solid evidence of the entire happening and let the higher ups judge.

    So, when you have the option of doing it on-site, but you refuse to due to X reasons, then you shouldn't bring parts of it to us after everything was done.
     
  20.  
    Zerachiel
    Amused

    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    Issue is a few newbies are easily manipulated into following these OEC wannabe "elites" which has happened on multiple occasions, they won't know who is legit or not. So it's kind of hard to really fix something like that, but I do believe off-site issues shouldn't be pushed on staff as if they have to handle it because there's very little staff can do in punishing or really proving it was done.
     

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