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Wider acceptance of "dark arts"

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    Ludwig
    Cynical

    Ludwig Senior Citizen
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    Its not a question of perception but use, the magick itself is neither good nor evil but the person behind it is. That is likely why my religion had forbade it.
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    Even with use it can still depend on perception, a curse is considered evil to some and just energy to others neither good nor evil. So it will technically always be a matter of perception. Because people do things with their own reasons, but not everyone will agree with said reason thus considering it evil, while some will see it justified thus seeing it good.
    There's no such thing as natural good and evil, it'll always matter of perception good and evil is just what someone chooses to label something based on their own moral code but even morals are subjective outside of the ones society has pushed on everyone.
     
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    Ludwig
    Cynical

    Ludwig Senior Citizen
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    While many of that is true, and I do agree with most, I believe the percieved morals fall on the user and not the ability, if that makes sense.

    Society is a social construct generated by humanity's need for organization and lust for social course, meaning the rules of society are nout but the rules of the mind, further contemplation reveals that the perceptions could not be pushed on us by society as they would need to have been first created by humanity to add to society as society itself is not sentient, but a mere concept. So, they are preconcieved notions that we push on ourselves, and we must understand that our morals are made by us and not some unseen force. That is how self-actualization is achieved.
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    Our morals come from how we were raised and our environment actually, someone who was raised around people and an environment that saw it was okay to say hunt animals for sport would be completely fine with it, as opposed to someone who was raised in an environment where that sort of thing was seen as bad or something along those lines will also develop that moral code( crummy example but you see my point). Our moral code starts to develop as we grow up, sure some of it may be our own outlook of the world around us, but even perception is a fickle thing and can be developed due to outside interference.
     
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    Ludwig
    Cynical

    Ludwig Senior Citizen
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    This is the old question of nature vs nurture. I dont think anyone *knows* the answer.
     
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    FlyingPenguin
    Relaxed

    FlyingPenguin Citizen

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    A gun in a man's hand can be used to wreak havoc, restore or create peace, or to simply hunt. If a man were to use the gun to protect, and then violently shot the people he was protecting, does this make the gun evil? No.

    Actions can be evil. People can be evil. The tool is neutral, neither good or bad. Magic is a tool, capable of creating and destroying. And I believe the practitioner should walk along the fence, being neutral, much like magic is.
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    I believe all do, but someone's actions can still be deemed good or evil which is subjective perception, since not everyone agrees or disagrees with certain actions, therefore everything technically is neutral until judged by individual's view on it.
     
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    FlyingPenguin
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    FlyingPenguin Citizen

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    I simply meant that the practitioner shouldn't adhere to what society says is good and bad.
    It is redundant to say that good and evil is a perspective, since the human perception of it is limited, and that it has likely been warped over time.

    The goal of the practitioner is to be neutral, and not favor one side. Infecting thousands with plague, having your own chosen people destroyed continuously, and killing the first born of every seemingly innocent family surely cannot be seen as benevolence. Right? But God acted according to the situation, and did what needed to be done.

    Yes, you can argue good and bad is a perspective. But you cannot say that actions are neutral.
     
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    Ludwig
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    Ludwig Senior Citizen
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    Otto von Bismarck would approve
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    I honestly can because labeling actions anything but is still your moral code driving your reason for considering it such. Society whether people like it or not plays a big role in how they perceive other's actions. No one is above this common occurrence. People feel the need to label another's actions good or bad because if they don't they feel like they are bad for not thinking something bad is well bad, or that something is wrong if they don't feel something from an action. It's apparent all around us. However, I'll just agree to disagree on this.
     
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    FlyingPenguin
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    How is killing someone neutral? How is raping someone neutral? The intent is to harm. You may have reasons you think make you a better person in a moral sense, but the actions are still wrong.
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    You proved my point on how you let your morals drive your perception of things, which is the point I was making. The one doing it might not see it that way, hence subjective ideas on good, evil, and what not. I dont agree with rape (knew one of you would use that as a card tbh) but I dont go calling it evil. I am on the fence with killing because some do it to protect and what not and even then I dont call it evil lol. Again, subjective labeling based on moral views.
     
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    greenfire9
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    greenfire9 Senior Citizen
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    hmm with the killing depends on the situation, like if the person is going to die in a survival situation or if you have to protect youself from say an invading country. Unlikely for me at least but just an idea
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    I dont deny my moral code where I disagree with certain things and agree with others, but the whole idea behind good and evil have been engrained in a lot of people's minds to where they automatically allow themselves to be stuck in their morality. Sure the situation depends, but it still remains subjective. However, if you were raised in a way to think that while someone else was raised in a way it was okay. I suppose there's a fine line between subjective and objective there.
     
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    FlyingPenguin
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    This was your point. I did not prove it. Actions are good or bad. And killing is still killing, the action is wrong. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
     
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    Zerachiel
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    Zerachiel Senior Citizen

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    Ignorance is bliss if you think your subjective opinion about another's actions makes it anything but subjective, but hey like I said I will agree to disagree, not like it makes much a difference.
     
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    Varric

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    Because all of those actions are deemed bad based on societies understanding that they are bad.

    Think of the mayans. They sacrificed their own people and captives of wars.

    Their own people considered being sacrificed a blessing and an honor that they were chosen to appease their gods. I mean can you believe it. You out of all the village were decided the most worthy to be sacrificed to a GOD.

    The captaives of war considered it a brutal and insane death penalty.

    Either way you look at it the priest just straight murdered someone. But on one side the person sees it as an honor. Being Honored generally is considered a good thing. On the other side the person sees it as a death sentence. Generally a death sentence is seen as bad.

    So yes. Murder is subjective to opinion.

    Rape is considered bad by definition of the word itself. But not all societies consider unwanted sexual advances rape. Take for example societies that women have no rights. It isn't rape in those societies. Its "serving your duties as a wife" outside of those societies. Yes its a terrible thing. But again you're using societies standards of perception therefore its again subjective.

    Morality is also subjective. I do not consider my morals better or worse than anyones. I consider my morals. My morals as that is all they are. Whether or not i act on them is again by my own decrees. Just as you choose to respond because your morals make you disagree or unable to see anothers side. Mine allow me to see both sides. :)
     
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    SageYuu
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    SageYuu Third Elder of the Nation
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    Dry and blatantly insulting sarcasm with no originality brought to you by the local short tempered and alcoholic midget. Don't let his gruff, hairy persona fool ya! He just needs a hug!

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    Comprehend the concept of harm along with the stereotypes of good and evil. Then have an epiphany!

    I swear to god people need to use there brains more often. There are subtle underlying 'systems/rules' that religions usually base their shit off of and from there stereotypes are born! From the masses all agreeing on a set series of traits, to the toning down of the more extreme traits in order to gradually introduce children into them while diluting their mental capacities and understanding in order to gradually introduce them to shit. Liberals and etc. Should not be allowed access to multimedia, they are creating more harm that good for crying out loud. I swear each generation uses their brain less and less and reproduces at dramatically faster rates.
     
    #38 SageYuu, Mar 4, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
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